Can there ever be peace between Israel and Palestine after the bombing of the al-Ahli Arab Hospital?
Father Dave Smith and Father Mark Battison
Dave: Okay, Father Dave here with Father Mark I’ve, just come back from England and Mark, is from England, and we’re in Sydney, and we’re talking about Palestine, That’s about it, isn’t it? Or Israel and Palestine, which at the moment, is as desperate a situation, I think, as it has been within my lifetime, Would that be correct? No, I guess … It probably would be correct. I mean we had the, I suppose the …
Mark: We’ve had the Intifadas and the previous wars and yeah and so on, but this seems to have escalated past all of those People are now starting to talk in terms of it having world implications.
Dave: Well, this is it I mean … It seems to me we’re looking potentially here at World War III. I think I’m going to find that tweet again, which I shared this morning, which I shared on Twitter and Facebook from a guy called Alexander Dugan who is a professor of some sort. I just thought it was very well put.
“In these days and after…” Sorry
“In these tragic days and after cruel bombing by Israel of a Palestinian Hospital in Gaza, the final loss of American control over the Islamic world is total and irreversible. Now the globalists have to fight simultaneously Russia, China and World Islam If that is not World War, III ..” Is there anything more than the ..,? Oh, “If it’s not World War III, what the hell is it?”, he says, and I thought that really encapsulated the situation.
Mark: Yes, it does, but I think we’re possibly a few steps still away from it, and by that I mean that what’s happening right now in in Israel/Palestine – it’s political, It’s not about individual people or indeed, the difference between Jewish, Christian or Muslim faiths. They’re easy. It’s easy for us to to label things in that way but the truth is that for a very long time the politics has been influencing enormously what’s happening in that part of the world and if you …
It’s very hard to be a Christian on occasions because we believe that Jesus Christ is at the centre of every human being. We believe that the Holy Spirit, works in the world, and we believe that it works for peace and for good, and there are undoubtedly billions and billions of acts of kindness and generosity and hope going on all the time but that’s not where the politicians seem to want to see the world.
Now what do I mean by that? The truth is that there has been oppression and occupation of Palestinians for, you know, well, we could say the last 75 years since Al Nakba, but you know, prior to that, and possibly not immediately prior, but for thousands of years, Jewish and Muslim people lived perfectly happily together in the in the land, that is now Israel/Palestine.
It was called Palestine at that time and then the politicians from Britain got involved, and from France, and the segregation and things of like that happened, and then there was a political guilt in the world and, to a certain degree, a Christian guilt, around the Holocaust. And how do we rectify what happened to the Jews in the Holocaust because that was the greatest event of catastrophe and murder that the world has ever really seen in recorded history? And so, in a sense, like everything, the pendulum never seems, to stop in the middle? It swings from one way to the other.
Israel were given this piece of land but with very clear instructions on how to manage it, and the responsibilities they had towards the indigenous Palestinians, and so on, but because of the guilt, the politicians have never enforced any of those conditions, and Israel, perhaps understandably (and I say ‘Israel’ in terms of again politicians and leaders, not average everyday person on the street), perhaps understandably, decided that this must never happen again, and the only way to do that was to create an environment in which it couldn’t happen again, and that meant to eradicate anybody who wasn’t Jewish Israeli from that part of the land, and that’s where the Nakba came from. It was the reduction, you know, the removal of 750,000 Palestinians from their homes, their lands, their businesses, and it’s been going on ever since. The Nakba was a not a one-off event. It’s a 75-year event.
So, if you see things in those historical terms, you start to see why it is that Israel gets the political support it does now, and why it feels inviolate when it comes to whatever actions they want to take. They are going to find international support rather than International condemnation.
Dave: Yeah, look, I always remember Uri Avnery’s illustration, the great late great Jewish peace activist He used to say it was likea man jumping from a burning building. He had to jump, but he landed on some innocent guy on the side path. When he jumped. You know, the Jewish people needed a place of safety, particularly after the Holocaust – absolutely – but they landed on the Palestinians, and it wasn’t their fault,
Mark: No, but the actions as a consequence of that are very much the responsibility of the government of Israel, which has moved evermore extremism in its right-wing views and its work, so you you’re starting from that point, and then you see,
Dave: it’s been encouraged and bolstered and supported by the US and that’s why …
Mark: Britain caused it and America keeps it going. But, you know, the truth is the US needs a strong, militarily strong, Israel to keep all these horrible Arabs and Muslims in place in the way that they see it because there’s oil considerations, there’s power bases there, but even.
Taking that aside, what Hamas did and, you know, what Hamas have done is to use young men, full of testosterone, who have grown up, been born and grown in total occupation – never known freedom. They’ve seen their parents, grandparents their siblings, get poorly, not allowed out through the gates, not getting visas to get treatment, … dying They’ve lived without the freedom that we take for granted, and then along comes Hamas with promises of revenge and freedom, and when you’re testosterone-filled and you’ve been told that you’re going to be a martyr, and, you know, what you’re doing is legitimate in the sight of God because of what’s happened for over … and away they go.
The truth is this is when I said it’s hard to be, a Christian. We cannot condone violence of any kind, it doesn’t matter if I can understand those frustrations and I can understand the fears. Being a Christian says, no violence, never, ever brings a resolution, It may be short-term resolutions but it will never be long term, and peace is the only, and we’ve often said, those of us who support Israel Palestine, there’ll never be peace for Israel unless they find peace with Palestinians first, and I feel that this has now set us back.
We were at a point where people were starting to talk about – in in senior positions within governments around the world, they were starting to talk and use the word ‘apartheid’, because the Israeli state is an apartheid state. There’s no question of that now. People like Desmond, Tutu identified it. The church in South Africa has come out and acknowledged it, and if those people don’t know what apartheid is ..
Dave: Jimmy Carter, I think, as well, in the US in his book …
Mark: Ah …, yes, well, indeed and there are many other very clever and erudite people around the world who have seen it in this way, and that was starting to gain traction, which meant, ultimately, in a period of time. political pressure would start to come on to the state of Israel, to say to the government, ‘You know,you can’t continue down this road. You have to find a way of making peace’.
We all know the two-state Solution is now dead in the water. It’s, not possible, but that doesn’t mean to say there can’t be peace of some kind or another. And what Hamas have done has now put this back decades probably, because we’re going to have to go back to the starting point of saying to, you know, that what Israel has done in the past will now have been wiped clean from everybody’s memories and it’s almost starting again, you know, and you, Dave, have had, your own experiences. I’ve had my ..
The very first time I went to Yad Vashem, I was leading a group of Christian pilgrims, and I had my collar on, and I walked into Yad Vashem with them and they’re all there for the first time, and there was a great big banner by the door that said, “Never trust these Christians; They still believe … they still blame us for killing their Jesus’‘ – at the opening, entrance to Yad Vashem! And that level of fear in Jews in Israel is, no doubt whatsoever, is underpinning a lot of the things that have happened, and you have to pray for that fear to go, you know: Christians don’t blame Jews for killing their Jesus. .
Dave: Well, look, let’s be honest though. I mean some have. I mean, even great figures like Martin Luther. We’ve had a terrible history of anti-Semitism within the church – no doubt about that, and no doubt there’s some of it still around.
Mark: I don’t hear it on a regular basis. In fact, it’s the old pendulum again. Now, you’re, so careful, not to say anything that could be classed as antisemitic that you daren’t even feel that you can challenge things that are, you know, against the teachings of Jesus
Dave: Yeah. The problem is equating criticism of the actions of the Israeli government, with anti-Semitism, and that’s where we want to say, ‘surely the two have to be separate. things’. You must be able to criticize an action of a government without being seen as being racially prejudiced.
Mark: And that’s why the definition of the IHRA definition, which has been adopted by governments around the world, is so problematic.
Dave: I appreciate what they’re saying is that people use criticism of Israel as a mask for their antisemitism. No doubt that’s been done, but there has to be legitimate political discourse as well which … outside of that.
Now you mentioned, as Christians, we need to look for a peaceful solution. This is one of the distressing things. I read, particularly American politicians, who supposedly are coming from a Christian perspective. I mean that the level of violence, they’re advocating is, just mindless They’re, talking about, they seem to be advocating genocide of the entire Palestinian people,
It’s deeply disturbing, and we included, well, I think I quoted in … last week, Nikki Haley, who’s a presidential candidate, you know, and some of her rhetoric, but other Senators over there … the language is vile It’s as if they’re advocating a genocide of the Palestinian population,
Mark: But the government of Israel has been advocating the genocide of the Palestinian population for a very long time, The …and I’m talking about the current members of the current government, because it’s moved to the right. The people who, you know, you’ve got people in charge of the police who’ve got 51, I think it is, criminal convictions, You’ve got, you’ve, got people who have very, very extreme views around genocide and they are in positions of power.
I had two examples. One was a … I spent time with a young Jewish teacher, Obviously I’m not going to say her name, but she was being encouraged to teach her children, around the 10 and12 year olds, that Arab children were less than human and therefore didn’t need to be seen as human or treated as human. She left the teaching profession because of that.
I’ve spent time, as I’m sure Dave has, and others listening to people in ‘Breaking, the Silence’ and other organizations. Where people who have spent time as in their doing their national service in Israel, who have come away with the most horrendous stories of how they, are taught that to eradicate Palestinians as a perfectly legitimate aim for Jewish people or for the state of Israel, not for Jewish people, my apologies, for the state of Israel. My own view is that the average Jewish person and the average Palestinian person are horrified by what’s going on.
I’ve got some close Jewish friends there, as I know Dave has. We have some close Palestinian friends. I had an email this morning from one saying “My heart is broken into a million, a billion pieces because of the bombing of the hospital in Gaza’‘, and, you know, the request by Israel, for people to move South, and then bombing the only two safe routes that were supposed to be used, and so on,
But in all of this, the one thing we have to hope on is that Christ will eventually conquer all of this because there’s an old saying that, “It will be all right in the end. Well, if it’s not all right, then it’s not the end”, and whether you’re a Zionist and believing that particular, you know, the world will be right when. Christ comes again, or whatever you believe in. The truth is, as a Christian, it’s hard to be a Christian in these times because you’re human side of you wants to cry out for revenge in some case for all the horrors of both sides, but the truth is, as Christians, If we don’t start, or we don’t continue to be messengers and beacons for peace, then who will? If not us, who will?
Christians need to be able to move above all of the politics and all of the violence and all of the hatred. Engage with it, discuss it, share it. I’m involved in putting a conference together next year where we’re going to be talking about anti-Semitism and anti … anti-Christianism, believe it or not, as a result of …
Dave: I didn’t think that was a word
Mark: Well, neither did I..I think we might have made it up, but nevertheless, it’s a result of things that have been happening in Jerusalem, and also islamophobia. And this conference is designed to acknowledge and to work on why it is all of us at times have those feelings and every human being gets those feelings on occasions because they look out at the world and see these things happening, but as Christians we have a God-given duty to talk about the peace that must come and how we can help shape it in our local communities.
We need to talk about peace, not about revenge, not about the violence. We need to preach peace because out of peace comes hope, and out of hope comes joy, and that’s what God wants for his creation – hope. peace, joy. That’s what we want, and even though this is all going on over there, we’re praying like crazy and we’re doing everything we can if the opportunity arises to engage with it.
As Christians, we have a duty to talk about and preach peace, So in our churches, in our families, in our communities, wherever it might be, if this subject comes up, I encourage everybody not to take sides – to preach peace for both – because if God is in all the world and if God’s in every part of the world, then even in the horrors of Israel-Palestine God’s there in the heart of It hoping to bring some kind of peace through any and everybody he can work through.
And. It doesn’t matter if you’re, Christian, Jewish Muslim, whatever. The truth is that we all go back to one God who created us for peace.
Dave: I think you said it all brother We’ll keep praying and keep doing what we can.
……………..
Father Mark Battison is the current president of Friends of Sabeel, Australia – a Christian Palestinian human rights organisation.
Father Dave is a former president of Friends of Sabeel, Australia
Filed under israel and palestine articles by on Oct 19th, 2023. Comment.
Post-apartheid South Africa has played a special role in the Palestinian struggle. Nelson Mandela was a personal friend of Yasser Arafat – a man who he saw as being on a parallel struggle for justice and freedom for his people. And as the church helped lead the struggle to end apartheid in South Africa, so it comes as no surprise that South African church leaders have come in firmly behind the ‘Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions’ (BDS) campaign against the Israeli government.
Defenders of Zionism are quick to ridicule any comparison between South African apartheid and the State of Israel’s policies that favour Jews over Arabs. As South African pastor, Rev. Dr. Moss Nthla, points out though, he is in a better position than most white people to judge whether the apartheid label is valid. He and other South African church leaders suggest, in fact, that the Israeli system of racial discrimination is actually worse than what they experienced under apartheid!
Father Dave
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Filed under israel and palestine conflict, israel and palestine religious conflict by on Mar 11th, 2014. Comment.
The press release featured below from the Palestinian Liberation Organisation’s ‘Department of Culture and Information’ is dated March 26. It features Dr Hana Ashrawi’s bold rebuke of the US for its predictable failure to support four resolutions brought before the United Nations Human Rights Committee (UNHRC) condemning Israel for ongoing human rights abuses in occupied Palestine.
Obama has made his visit to Israel/Palestine and his position is clear: US support for Israel is unconditional and no pressure is being put on the Netanyahu government to end the Palestinian occupation or even to slow the rate of settlement expansion! Now the gloves are off and the PA is telling it like it is! As Ashrawi says, “The United States, ostensibly a champion of ‘liberty and justice for all’, voted against freedom and democracy, and for racism, oppression and apartheid.”
Will this press release receive any attention in the US? We’ll see. Will these prophetic protests from Palestine make any difference to US policy? Not likely!
Father Dave
Dr Hanan Ashrawi
Dr. Ashrawi on the adoption by the UNHRC of four resolutions regarding the situation in the Occupied State of Palestine
On 19 March 2013, the UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC), in its 22nd session, voted nearly unanimously to adopt four texts regarding the situation in the Occupied State of Palestine, including East Jerusalem.
In relevant part, the texts warned that ongoing Israeli violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, particularly as regards the illegal settlement enterprise, constituted ‘a major obstacle to the establishment of a just and comprehensive peace and to the creation of an independent, viable, sovereign and democratic Palestinian State’. They demanded that Israel respect international human rights and humanitarian law and comply with its legal obligations thereunder. They condemned ‘all acts of violence, including all acts of terror, provocation, incitement and destruction’; and called upon Israel to implement serious measures to prevent and punish acts of violence by Israeli settlers against Palestinian civilians and properties in the Occupied State, including East Jerusalem. They demanded that ‘Israel, the occupying power, cease all practices and actions that violate the human rights of the Palestinian people, including the killing and injury of civilians, the arbitrary detention and imprisonment of civilians and the destruction and confiscation of civilian property’. They demanded that all parties concerned implement and ensure the implementation of the all of the recommendations found in the Report of the Independent International Fact-Finding Mission to Investigate the Implications of Israeli settlements on the Civil, Political, Economic, Social and Cultural Rights; and urged their assistance in the early realization of ‘the inalienable, permanent and unqualified right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, including their right to live in freedom, justice and dignity, and to establish their sovereign, independent, democratic and viable contiguous State’.
Only the United States voted against any of the four texts, and it voted against them all.
In response, PLO Executive Committee member, Dr. Hanan Ashrawi said:
“On behalf of the Palestinian people and leadership, I would like to express great appreciation and gratitude to the Council Members who stood up for human rights, peace, and justice in the Occupied State of Palestine. We appreciate your support and value your courage to stand behind your convictions.”
Dr. Ashrawi stressed, “In this context, the United States once again demonstrated a total disregard for Palestinian rights and the requirements of peace. In this 22nd session of the UN Human Rights Council, it willfully voted against the fundamental human rights of people and against the very core values upon which the United States claims to be founded.”
“The United States, ostensibly a champion of ‘liberty and justice for all’, voted against freedom and democracy, and for racism, oppression and apartheid. It voted against justice, and for impunity, in the face of the most egregious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law. It voted against peace. There can be no justification for this double standard.”
“Rather than respecting human rights and the rule of law, the United States has chosen to politicize them, and to continue to isolate itself with its unwavering support for the illegal policies and practices of the Israeli occupation.”
“It is therefore incumbent upon the international community to stand strong and united in upholding the rule of law and the established principles and values that govern the international system and individual states,” concluded Dr. Ashrawi.
Filed under Israel and Palestine by on Mar 30th, 2013. Comment.
This is depressing! Admittedly, the survey was designed by peace and civil-rights activists, and the results are already being challenged (see article). Even so, the stats are distrubing, and I’ve highlighted a few of them!
The most depressing aspect of this analysis, in my view, is that the degree of support for apartheid evidenced in the survey seems to be in direct proportion to the respondent’s religiosity! In other words, the more religious you are, the more racist! What a horrible irony!
Father Dave
source: Haaretz
Survey: Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel
Gideon Levy
October 23, 2012
Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank. A majority also explicitly favors discrimination against the state’s Arab citizens, a survey shows.
The survey, conducted by Dialog on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, exposes anti-Arab, ultra-nationalist views espoused by a majority of Israeli Jews. The survey was commissioned by the Yisraela Goldblum Fund and is based on a sample of 503 interviewees.
The questions were written by a group of academia-based peace and civil rights activists. Dialog is headed by Tel Aviv University Prof. Camil Fuchs.
The majority of the Jewish public, 59 percent, wants preference for Jews over Arabs in admission to jobs in government ministries. Almost half the Jews, 49 percent, want the state to treat Jewish citizens better than Arab ones; 42 percent don’t want to live in the same building with Arabs and 42 percent don’t want their children in the same class with Arab children.
A third of the Jewish public wants a law barring Israeli Arabs from voting for the Knesset and a large majority of 69 percent objects to giving 2.5 million Palestinians the right to vote if Israel annexes the West Bank.
A sweeping 74 percent majority is in favor of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank. A quarter – 24 percent – believe separate roads are “a good situation” and 50 percent believe they are “a necessary situation.”
Almost half – 47 percent – want part of Israel’s Arab population to be transferred to the Palestinian Authority and 36 percent support transferring some of the Arab towns from Israel to the PA, in exchange for keeping some of the West Bank settlements.
Although the territories have not been annexed, most of the Jewish public (58 percent ) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs. Only 31 percent think such a system is not in force here. Over a third (38 percent ) of the Jewish public wants Israel to annex the territories with settlements on them, while 48 percent object.
The survey distinguishes among the various communities in Israeli society – secular, observant, religious, ultra-Orthodox and former Soviet immigrants. The ultra-Orthodox, in contrast to those who described themselves as religious or observant, hold the most extreme positions against the Palestinians. An overwhelming majority (83 percent ) of Haredim are in favor of segregated roads and 71 percent are in favor of transfer.
The ultra-Orthodox are also the most anti-Arab group – 70 percent of them support legally barring Israeli Arabs from voting, 82 percent support preferential treatment from the state toward Jews, and 95 percent are in favor of discrimination against Arabs in admission to workplaces.
The group classifying itself as religious is the second most anti-Arab. New immigrants from former Soviet states are closer in their views of the Palestinians to secular Israelis, and are far less radical than the religious and Haredi groups. However, the number of people who answered “don’t know” in the “Russian” community was higher than in any other.
The Russians register the highest rate of satisfaction with life in Israel (77 percent ) and the secular Israelis the lowest – only 63 percent. On average, 69 percent of Israelis are satisfied with life in Israel.
Secular Israelis appear to be the least racist – 68 percent of them would not mind having Arab neighbors in their apartment building, 73 percent would not mind Arab students in their children’s class and 50 percent believe Arabs should not be discriminated against in admission to workplaces.
The survey indicates that a third to half of Jewish Israelis want to live in a state that practices formal, open discrimination against its Arab citizens. An even larger majority wants to live in an apartheid state if Israel annexes the territories.
The survey conductors say perhaps the term “apartheid” was not clear enough to some interviewees. However, the interviewees did not object strongly to describing Israel’s character as “apartheid” already today, without annexing the territories. Only 31 percent objected to calling Israel an “apartheid state” and said “there’s no apartheid at all.”
In contrast, 39 percent believe apartheid is practiced “in a few fields”; 19 percent believe “there’s apartheid in many fields” and 11 percent do not know.
The “Russians,” as the survey calls them, display the most objection to classifying their new country as an apartheid state. A third of them – 35 percent – believe Israel practices no apartheid at all, compared to 28 percent of the secular and ultra-Orthodox communities, 27 percent of the religious and 30 percent of the observant Jews who hold that view. Altogether, 58 percent of all the groups believe Israel practices apartheid “in a few fields” or “in many fields,” while 11 percent don’t know.
Filed under Israel and Palestine, israel and palestine articles, israel and palestine conflict by on Oct 25th, 2012. Comment.
Unfortunately the ‘Welcome to Palestine’ campaign didn’t turn out to be the friendly gathering it was envisaged to be. The massive over-reaction of the Israeli government echoes the horrors of the Mavi Marmara!
Press Release from the Welcome to Palestine Campaign
We did not have to show our 1500 visitors Israeli racism, arrogance, and human rights violations; the Israeli government showed them and also showed the whole world. Calling itself a democracy, this outlaw state denied the right of people from around the world to come visit us and see for themselves the reality of life under occupation.
We the Palestinian people are 11 million normal human beings, 7 million are refugees or displaced people simply because they are natives to a land that was wanted for a Jewish state. Five million of us are living in increasingly shrinking ghettos on a tiny fraction of our land. We remain here despite an illegal and brutal occupation that includes land confiscation, movement restrictions, home demolitions, illegal imprisonment of thousands (many now on hunger strike), and countless other inhuman conditions. We did not expect from this occupation that daily violates human rights to also allow us as prisoners under its boot to openly and honestly receive visitors. These visitors who wanted to come and see what reality is like here certainly were shocked at the Israeli behaviour. And those who wanted to welcome our visitors and were brutally assaulted will remember how the same Israeli police let right wing fanatics sing and disrupt at the airport. The whole world is now seeing Israel for what it is: a police state that fulfils all the requirements of being an apartheid pariah state per the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (1973).
Countries that once supported Apartheid in South Africa had people who mobilized against it. Now people of conscience mobilize to challenge this apartheid that is now so explicitly expressed.
Those airlines and governments that acted as subcontractors for the Israeli apartheid regime are being challenged by their own people. In denying boarding to a passenger by Air France, the airline documented that she cannot board because she is neither Jewish or Israeli! (see in French wtp2france.palestinejn.org…, English: palestinianspring.palestinejn.org…)
In claiming in writing that we called for disruptions and for challenging "security" of Israel, the Israeli government was exposed as lying. In forcing a Swedish passenger (unrelated to our campaign) to sign that he was not going to meet with any "pro-Palestinian" individuals or groups, the Israeli government was shown to be racist. Imagine if a similar requirement was posted to visitors to any other country about visiting or meeting with "pro-black" individuals or organizations. In sending a letter to that claims activists should worry about Iran and Syria before worrying about this system of apartheid, the Israeli government showed the bankruptcy of its arguments. In denying us the right to visit, the Israeli government showed the world that it has a lot to hide.
For examples of participant profiles of those denied their right to visit us in Palestine, visit www.welcometopalestine.info…
At the end of our press conference in Bethlehem, we passed out Easter colored eggs. We Palestinian Christian and Muslims are grateful to all who act on their conscience, Internationals, Israelis, and Palestinian volunteers. Thousands of us say loud and clear: we will not be silenced, we will continue to organize campaigns until we have freedom and until Israel complies with all relevant International and Humanitarian laws.
Contact email: media@palestinejn.org…
Contact phone numbers in languages: Arabic, English. French, Spanish, Hebrew
0599255573 (A, E, F)
0568347074 (A, E, S)
0598939532 ((A, E)
0505633044 (A, E, H)
Welcome to Palestine 2012 Campaign websites
palestinianspring.palestinejn.org…
bienvenidosapalestina.jimdo.com…
English: palestinianspring.palestinejn.org…
Arabic: wtp2arabic.palestinejn.org…
Spanish: wtp2spain.palestinejn.org…
French: wtp2spain.palestinejn.org…
Swedish: wtp2sweden.palestinejn.org…
Norwegian: wtp2norway.palestinejn.org…
Filed under israel and palestine articles by on Apr 17th, 2012. Comment.
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